D800E and moire...

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D800E and moire...

Postby StanyB » Thu 3 May 2012 12:12


"D800E and moire...", or better "D800E, searching for moire..."

Good morning everybody,

Yesterday we were doing some further testing for D800 vs D800e for sharpness and moire in the studio of a friend of mine.

We dressed up my daughter specially for what we thought would/could/might bring moire while using the D800E and we were taking over 100 shots altogether.


Image

But, after searching at at different magnifications in ViewNX2 until my eyes hurt, I could not discover moire. :D :D :D

:idea: Using exclusively Nikon Capture and Nikon software for many years, and while I've seen some pictures on the internet where D800E was exhibiting moire, and I can't find any moire in approx 2500 pics I took with my D800E :? , I start to think that probably Nikon Capture and Nikon View get rid of it in default conversion...
Or, - :idea: :idea: - Nikon might be just handling better the moire issue with AA-less cameras than the competition does...


One of the images of the shoot after NEF conversion in Nikon Capture NX2, -without any sharpening or post processing-(exif under the image)Image
Registered users can download the original NEF file here from somewhere tomorrow(no time anymore today, sorry....)
How to register on this forum is explained here.

The exif of the above image: Image

And for those who are interested about sharpness of D800E, on files without any post processing, a 100% crop of the above picture:

Image
and

Image


I am sure-based on the comparison posted on the Rob Galbraith website-, that shooting jpeg with D800e provides significantly more moire, -or an increase of chances to encounter moire-, than NEF files.

Further more, I am convinced -more than ever before-, that Capture NX2 is the right software for handling Nikon NEF files, and even more while shooting with D800E.
Also keeping the in-camera settings while opening a NEF file is a huge time benefit over working with ACR. I wrote a topic about this on my website here.
BTW, I have an official PS5.5 license but I use ACR only sometimes after I converted my NEFS to TIFF in NX2


Update: From the same photo shoot, a similar image taken with D800 to compare:
One of the images of the photo shoot taken with D800 after NEF conversion in Nikon Capture NX2, -without any sharpening or post processing-(exif under the image)Image
The exif of the above image: Image
Registered users can download the original NEF file here from somewhere tomorrow(no time anymore today, sorry....)
How to register on this forum is explained here.

And a 100% crop of the above image:
Image

Thanks for your attention and kindest regards,
Stany
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Re: D800E and moire...

Postby James » Thu 3 May 2012 13:39

Thanks for the examples Stany, it looks like you've taken a lot of time over this.

I can see some blue and yellow and mottling on the second crop on the jacket but this is the key for me - the fabric is one that should not exhibit much moire anyway, if you had your daughter taking up less of the frame it might be a better test - but the fabric that always trips me up is anything silk based. I think it's down to the fineness of the weave.

Thanks again for sharing though, good work.
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About moire, with my former Nikon, Canon, Fuji cams...

Postby StanyB » Fri 4 May 2012 07:31

What I notice is that many people, -including myself - are giving more attention and observing time for moire now that the D800E exists in the Nikon line... I have to remind myself and take into consideration that moire has always been a possible issue that occured also once and a while with my former Nikon (D1x -> D3/D700) cams, my Canon 5D and probably even with my Fuji S5pro despite the too strong AA filter S5pro had...

After having taken thousands of pictures with diff cams where billiard cloth was involved, I saw once and a while a moire pattern, just like I rather often saw -sometimes strong- moire patterns in macro pictures where facets of insects were the subject.

Here underneath a picture I took with my Canon 5D. The picture was bad, wrong DOF and more and by no means "a keeper", but I kept a small copy of it because of the moire pattern...
Image
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Re: D800E and moire...

Postby James » Fri 4 May 2012 08:00

Hi Stany, that's pretty extreme!

I got a lot of moire shooting silk based fabrics with the D700, and on some colours they made the shot almost impossible to fix (with my skill level) but then the pattern went when I printed them so it was OK!

I see it most with MF shots that are resized for web (but then it's just pattern moire, not colour moire).

I had a Leica M9 for a bit and that created a really ugly colour moire at times (railway tracks or railing going to infinity) that I could only hide by converting to black and white.

So while you are right people look for it more with the D800E it is a real issue for some people in some situations.

I think that it is great that Nikon gave customers the option though, that's very forward thinking! Pam won't have to get her's converted when she gets one! :D
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Re: D800E and moire...

Postby James » Fri 4 May 2012 11:42

Here's a similar comparison too
http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/conten ... 1676-12555

There is definitely more moire and colour artifacting on the D800e in those examples...
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Re: D800E and moire...

Postby StanyB » Sat 5 May 2012 08:51

James wrote:Here's a similar comparison too
http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/conten ... 1676-12555

There is definitely more moire and colour artifacting on the D800e in those examples...


Hi James,
Yes, but only in the jpegs. D800E is a cam for RAW shooters.
E stands for "expert
" :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: D800E and moire...

Postby James » Sat 5 May 2012 22:59

They are much worse in the jpegs - but they are definitely there in the converted raw files too - look at the colour artefacts on the sign and the stripes on the shoes in the bin.

The metal in the lower one shoes heavy Moire too. On the building crops there is still a lot of Moire on the D800E although it's created more of a pattern than the colours.

Just saying!
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Re: D800E and moire...

Postby StanyB » Sat 5 May 2012 23:01

James wrote:They are much worse in the jpegs - but they are definitely there in the converted raw files too - look at the colour artefacts on the sign and the stripes on the shoes in the bin.

The metal in the lower one shoes heavy Moire too. On the building crops there is still a lot of Moire on the D800E although it's created more of a pattern than the colours.

Just saying!

I believe those conversions were made in ACR. With D800E, Nikon Capture NX is the way to go. Much better!
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Re: D800E and moire...

Postby James » Sat 5 May 2012 23:07

They said that they were made in Capture NX2 at the top of the page.

By the way I processed some of my D700 images in Lightroom 4 and it got rid of a lot of colour moire on the silk dresses (although it did block in some of the texture too) it actually did a better job on that than Capture NX 2 did.
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Re: D800E and moire...

Postby pam.meier » Mon 14 May 2012 15:17

So, Stany, after your experiences with D800 and D800 E, will you keep both?
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Re: D800E and moire...

Postby StanyB » Mon 28 May 2012 13:47

pam.meier wrote:So, Stany, after your experiences with D800 and D800 E, will you keep both?

Hi Pamela,
D800 vs D800E, D800 is the one I keep...
Kindest regards,
Stany
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D800E and moire while shooting macro...

Postby StanyB » Mon 28 May 2012 14:15

:arrow: During the initial days with my D800E there was no chance to test for macro shooting while there simply were no bugs out due to an extremely cold, wet and windy spring...
On May 16th finally weather became better and bugs appeared so It was time to test D800E for macro.
After approx 60 shots of fly eyes gave me significantly more moire than I've seen before with any Nikon from D1H ->...->D3 and D7000.
:!: Take care, all Nikons, Fujis and Canons I used in the past exhibited once and a while some moire while photographing insect facets. It can be avoided while changing magnification, aperture or shooting angle but I find D800E produces significantly more moire in those ciorcumstances than D800 and other Nikon cameras I used...

Update 01.07.2013: Many thousands of (macro)shots later I did not encounter this problem anymore...

While the average of all shots exhibited significantly more moire the flies’ facets than what I've encountered before, some of them were really nasty. One of those here below:
Image

:!: And about the above fly shot: Normally a picture like this would be erased on my memory card, I only kept it because of the moire.
Some of the better fly shots I've captured.. ;)
:arrow: Some of my favourite macro pictures...
:arrow: Just a fly...
:arrow:Fly- and bee-eyes...

Kindest regards,
Stany
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Re: D800E and moire...

Postby Marianne Oelund » Tue 29 May 2012 10:22

Stany:
Regarding your insect macrophotography with the D800E, did you ever get a chance to try some narrow apertures such as f/16 - f/22, to see how much effect diffraction softening would have on the moire'?
- Marianne
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Re: D800E and moire...

Postby StanyB » Fri 21 Dec 2012 22:19

Marianne Oelund wrote:Stany:
Regarding your insect macrophotography with the D800E, did you ever get a chance to try some narrow apertures such as f/16 - f/22, to see how much effect diffraction softening would have on the moire'?
- Marianne

Up on your advice -thanks for that- while playing with aperture during the same macro session I can avoid moire most of the time.
TMHO and based upon practical experience, moire in macro photography has a lot to do with the kind of light you're working in. Harsh sunlight is to be avoided.

Some recent macros with D800e, taken handhold:

The scene:
Image
and a 100% crop:

Image
And one more...

The scene
Image
And a 100% crop

Image
kindest regards,

Stany
I like better one good shot in a day than 10 bad ones in a second...
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My final opinion on D800e and moire

Postby StanyB » Sun 23 Dec 2012 12:52

With D800e, users(includig muyself) and reviewers are searching for moiré whereas with all former Nikon, Fuji and Canon cameras nobody really cared.

Here underneath a moire sample with my Canon 5D...

Image

Being involved with billiards all my life where I made tenthousands of pictures where billiard cloth was part or the major part of the picture I tried this with D800 vs D800e and after pictures in ifferent angles and lighting I could not create more moire with D800e than with D800 or any camera before...
Image

Main reason why I encounter few moire with D800e might be that I exclusively shoot NEF and I exclusively convert with Nikon Capture NX2 or Nikon ViewNX2.

I tested D800e moire difference between jpeg and NEF(converted with Capture NX2) and the difference is much more than what someone might call significant.
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